Talk:Mary-Louise Parker/Archive1

Quotes Section

Apologies to whomever started populating this section before I cut it, but that section is a vestige of IMDb that got copied over by a bot, and I'd rather not start encouraging people to fill it in on People Pages, which is why it's thus far stayed off the "preferred" format used on the Ian Somerhalder page (which needs fixing up, anyway, but not for that reason). Those quotes (as seen on the IMDb) are almost impossible to verify (unlike quotes from episodes of a TV show), and I can honestly say, from what I've seen on the IMDb, they have hardly ever added any useful information ever whatsoever period. A good 90% of the time (although this didn't seem to be the case here—but again, I'd rather nip that section in the bud before it spreads), the IMDb Quotes sections also end up being "rah rah such-and-such a celebrity agrees with my political viewpoint/religious viewpoint/viewpoint on vegetarianism" or "boo such-and-such a celebrity is an Evil Librul/Twisted Conservative" or borderline creepy stalker stuff getting into every little facet of their daily lives. (In fairness, the "Trivia" sections on the IMDb often end up being the same thing, but at least that section has the potential of providing something useful, worthwhile or interesting. Although frankly, percentage-wise, it tends to fall short a lot, too.) This site is about TV, and to the extent that actors pages are on here—and I've been a devout advocate that they should be and that they should be well-populated and have been staying up late hours to make it so—the pages should be about their work on television and not what the cast of The O.C. thinks of the War in Iraq. Some measure of that will necessarily seep into the Biography and Trivia sections, but as much as it can be contained, I think we've done a good job of doing that thus far, and I'd like to keep it that way. The Quotes section just opens up a can of worms we don't need. And, again, it's often damn-near impossible to verify, unless you happen to have a copy of every magazine or newspaper ever published and talk show or news show ever aired handy. JCaesar 08:22, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

I added some new quotes, which deal with television, with citations. If there is a general problem with Quote sections, the place for that is on proposal pages, specifically here seems appropriate, not on the Mar-Louise Parker talk page. --MateoP 13:10, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

Oh, stellar, I should've guessed who it was that filled that section in.

Fine. I'll add the proposal not to change what has been established on every other Person Page since the Wiki began to the Proposal page which, to date, I've been almost the only person to comment on or make suggestions on, so we can address a change that was made to one page on one person on the Wiki. Until the issue is resolved (or, indeed, even addressed by more than one other person), I'll enclose the Quotes on this page in comment brackets which can be easily removed once a consensus is reached. JCaesar 18:26, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

Comments make the section not appear. As the section is currently sourced and related only to the TV shows she has appeared in, it is neither political nor biased. Until consensus is reached on specific guidelines on people pages, there is no reason that they must all be the same. --MateoP 21:34, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

You want to change the format of People Pages from what it currently is on every other Person Page (none of which has a quote on it). Even if you can find one which has a quote on it, they are still in the firm minority. You also wanted that change to be up for discussion. It's now up for discussion. You can bloody well wait for a consensus like everybody else. Once a consensus is reached, it doesn't take but five seconds to remove the comment code. JCaesar 23:06, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

Credits

If whomever is filling these in could also double-check please and make sure that all her credits (both talk show and guest starring) have been picked up, that'd be great. Our credits for Late Night with Conan O'Brien are more complete than the IMDb's, and I'm pretty sure she appeared on there at least once.

Also, this isn't an issue right now, but is there any way, with the new automated Guest Starring Table, to link her name to her guest starring role if a character entry is made for it? JCaesar 10:27, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

You can just link it manually inside the template like you would if not using the template and it will work. {{Gueststar-lt|The West Wing|[[West Wing/Amy Gardner|Amy Gardner]]|The Women of Qumar|3x08|November 28, 2001}} The-jam 12:10, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

Cool, that's what I figured. I was just asking because I'm filling in a lot of these guest appearances, and it makes it easier for actors whose characters do have character entries (like Leah Remini on Saved by the Bell.

I made the Guest Star template and used the guest star table used on Charlie Day as a guide. I think that most guest stars are only there for a few episodes, and usually don't even have links on episode pages (just the actors get links). So I think there are probably very few guest stars who even get character pages made. In cases such as this where it's a frequent guest star it's more likely that a character page when eventually get made (if any West Wing fans come around), so I think we should do like The-jam suggested and manually link inside the template. --MateoP 15:36, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

Also, finding talk show appearances is difficult here because search will pick up anyone with the last name Parker and using quotes to capture of full name doesn't work. I will look elsewhere. --MateoP 15:57, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

It's not that hard. Just enter her full name and click "Search." You'll pretty much get her, plus maybe one or two other pages which include a "Mary" AND a "Louise" AND a "Parker." I just did a search for mary louise parker, got less than 40 hits, and all but I think one or two of them were actually references to Mary-Louise Parker.

Where it's hard is a person with two common first names as his or her whole name. Larry David took me a lot of filtering on my part, but I got him. Just look at what results come up and the parts highlighted in red in the preview, use your head, and be diligent. That's all. Thanks. JCaesar 19:28, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

Hallmark Hall of Fame

I moved these "Guest Starring Roles" to the Film Roles because Hallmark Hall of Fame hasn't been a TV series since the 1950s. From 1952-1955, there was an anthology series with that title, which aired on the same network at the same time on the same day of the week. Since 1955, however, it's just been a bunch of TV movies made by the same production company. I don't even think they air on the same network always, let alone the same day or time.

Hallmark, Inc. calls it a "TV series" because that way they can inflate the number of Emmy/Golden Globe/other awards nominations they've gotten for their TV movies, but to say it actually is a TV series is pushing the definition of that term pretty close to the breaking point. JCaesar 22:13, 3 August 2006 (EDT)

Regardless of whether Hallmark Hall of Fame is a series or set of TV movies, the roles are still television roles and fit in with this wiki. Notable Film Roles should only be used for motion pictures that are released to theaters. DCEdwards1966 | Talk 23:32, 3 August 2006 (EDT)

So what would we do with notable film roles in TV movies which don't have a HHOF banner, like almost every other non-mini-series TV movie ever made? I didn't take the HHOF movies off the page, just moved them from a section where they referred to an inexistent 43rd season of a series that had three seasons. I agree they belong here (which is one of the reasons I invented the "Notable Film Roles" section in the first place), but not at the expense of making up series or seasons. Perhaps if we came up with a separate section for "TV movies" or something? JCaesar 02:51, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I would hope that eventually, all TV movies will have pages on the wiki. Currently, several of the Sci Fi Channel movies are represented.

As far as Hallmark Hall of Fame specifically, I don't agree that it isn't a television series. True, it hasn't been a weekly series since 1955. It is now a series of television movies that air on a specific network several times a year. It aired on NBC until 1979. Since then it has aired mostly on CBS, with a season or two on ABC and PBS. Deals for the show are made on a seasonal basis rather than a movie by movie basis. It should be no different than any other anthology series. DCEdwards1966 | Talk 12:05, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Sorry. I missed this comment earlier. Deals for the show are made on a seasonal basis rather than a movie by movie basis. Eh... it's been years since I worked for the distributor, and I mostly only dealt with the videos, but as I recall, that's not quite how it works. I wanna say networks buy exclusive rights to x number of movies with a first option of renewal upon airing of those productions, but I'd have to double-check. Regardless, Hallmark itself refers to the name "Hallmark Hall of Fame" as a brand, not a series (except, again, when referring to the Emmys and Golden Globes). Again, there was an anthology series from 1952-55 with that title, which did commercials for Hallmark, around the same time there were series called Kraft Suspense Theatre, which did commercials for Kraft products, Colgate Comedy Hour, which did commercials for Colgate toothpaste, Texaco Star Theatre, which did commercials for Texaco, et al. The difference was that neither Kraft, Colgate nor Texaco had their own production company, while Hallmark did, and some (but not all) of the episodes were produced by that production company.

The reason Hallmark still uses the "Hallmark Hall of Fame" brand on its movies (and it is a brand, by their own terms) is because, as productions funded by a division of Hallmark, Inc., they also serve as essentially two-hour-long commercials for Hallmark (interspersed with one-minute-long commercials for guess what). To say that makes it a "series" is saying that a series is defined almost solely by what its production company is, or who they do commercials for. That's pushing it.

The movies do not air at a regular time; the networks change regularly (in a system which may be similar to the way contracts for television series are drawn up, but by no means identical), and the only common thread is the use of a brand name on a title.

Plus, again, under no circumstances is there a 43rd season of it. To say otherwise is horribly inaccurate. JCaesar 18:07, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I wanna say networks buy exclusive rights to x number of movies with a first option of renewal upon airing of those productions, but I'd have to double-check. As a postscript, I just got off the phone with my friend Emily who still works at the distributor (in its Business and Legal Affairs department, no less), and she confirmed what I suspected. The network (say, NBC) cuts an exclusive contract with Hallmark Hall of Fame Productions for a certain number of films over a certain period of time. Once those films have aired, if the production company and network had a good relationship (they usually do; those HHOF movies are money machines, and as the network is not fronting the money for the production, their risk is small per-production), HHOF usually gives them the option of renewing the contract for another number of productions over another period of time, unless another network makes a better offer. This, by the way, is a very common system for production companies with both television networks and movie studios for theatrical movies and TV series and TV movies. JCaesar 19:28, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

The other problem we run into (and it's entirely immaterial to this discussion, which is about whether those credits for Parker should be listed as "Guest Starring Roles" in seasons of a TV series which did not exist—which is obviously inappropriate—but because this discussion has raised the issue of whether perhaps they might be Starring Roles in a TV production) is what to do with movies which aired theatrically in one country, but on TV in another? I'm reminded of this problem because I am currently editing Charlize Theron, who starred in and was given nominations for The Life and Death of Peter Sellers. It aired theatrically in the UK, but only on TV in the USA, where she was nominated for Emmys and TV Golden Globes. Where to classify it? Conversely, a film such as Das Boot, which was filmed as a TV movie but released theatrically, or Duel, doesn't quite fit either categorization. As this is not an entirely uncommon situation, the more I think of it, it seems to me the only solution which would be immediately obvious to and understandable by (from categorizations alone) all the tens of thousands of editors is to include TV movies with theatrical movies in the "Notable Film Roles" category (again, as the category was intended) and thus side-step that question altogether. JCaesar 07:02, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

The problem with listing television movies with theatrical movies is that theatrical movies won't have articles on the wiki. Television movies, on the other hand, could and should have articles here. We could possibly have a separate section for television movies and specials. DCEdwards1966 | Talk 12:05, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, but as long as we're rolling this idea over, how do we deal with those theatrical and television movies? JCaesar 17:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

It's always a bad idea to make changes to a page based on personal opinion. I agree with DCEdwards that it's an anthology series. Maybe an infrequent one, but one nonetheless. But wikis are not about opinions. When available, go with an external source. In this case the studio calls it a television series. So that's what this page should represent. --MateoP 16:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

1. The studio (or, rather, production company, because that's what Hallmark is) doesn't really call it a television series consistently, either. I've seen the production company's page. If you re-read their page carefully, they only refer to it as a "series" when referring to how many Emmys and Golden Globes it has won, again to inflate the numbers. (The rest of the time, it's a "brand," a "program" or a set of "productions.") They also only list the HHOF movies which Hallmark, Inc. produced through its own production company—which excludes most of the episodes of the short period in the 1950s when there actually was an anthology series called Hallmark Hall of Fame.
2. If Hallmark starts writing us checks, I'll call their movies whatever they pay me and CygnusTM and everybody else to call them. Meanwhile, it's not our job to make up TV series which don't exist for marketing purposes.
3. Not even Hallmark refers to a 43rd season of a TV show that lasted three seasons. There is no 43rd season. That's not an opinion, that is fact.

For lack of a better term, the HHOF movies belong with Notable Film Roles until such time as they belong in a TV movie section, but under no circumstances do they qualify as Guest Starring Roles in a TV series which does not exist and has not existed in 50 years and has had no 43rd season. That's not an opinion, that is fact. JCaesar 17:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Heh. Totally tangential trivia I just noticed in going back over the HHOF page: I used to work for Artisan Entertainment, the distributor of Hallmark Hall of Fame's VHS and DVD products. HHOF's account and the account of a studio, Republic Pictures, were 90% of my job. Hallmark does not list Amahl and the Night Visitors, its early Shakespearean productions, and a few other 1950s productions as being available on VHS and DVD. They are. It's just that Republic owns the rights to them.

Hallmark, Inc. isn't really interested in factual accuracy, just in pushing their product. That's fair. We aren't in their business. That's fair, too. JCaesar 17:52, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

The section "Guest Starring Roles" is a subsection of "Roles". No where in there is the word television. So even if you are correct, and again this is not the place for debate, it would still belong there (or possibly the starring section, that is a legitimate debate).

By definition, "Guest Star" refers only to television or radio. Movies and theatrical plays use no such term. (They, in fact, use "Lead," "Supporting" or "Featured," and sometimes agents and managers will use the word "Principle" to refer to a role a little larger than "Supporting" but not quite big enough to be a "Lead.") So "Guest Starring Roles" doesn't need to use the word television. It's implied in the title, unless we start listing radio appearances. JCaesar 18:48, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Nevertheless, your revision removes a wikilink and replaces with external links. This prevents people from seeing pages on Hallmark Hall of Fame which is either a television show or television movie studio; either of which have a place on a television wiki.

This prevents people from seeing pages on Hallmark Hall of Fame which is either a television show or television movie studio For accuracy's sake, it's neither. It's a brand name used by a production company. Again, their use of it is distinct from the television series. JCaesar 18:48, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

It's interesting that you are adament about not allowing studios to push their opinion on their product here, but you have no problem pushing your opinion. Please get a blog, this isn't the place for that. Wikis are collection of factual information, which have verifiable sources.

Cute.

I'm not even sure why a notable film roles should exist here. This is a television wiki, after all. That stuff can be placed in biography and/or trivia (already is, in this case). Of course, this isn't the place to debate whether we should have a notable films section so i'm not going to make any effort to remove it. --MateoP 18:10, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I created the Notable Film Roles section at a time when most TV movies weren't listed on the Wiki. Also because some TV roles have been related to film roles, etc., and I didn't want that excluded. (Not to mention even people doing characters in films related to their TV roles—such as Jeremy Piven recently doing the voice of a character who is blatantly an homage to Ari Gold in the movie Cars.) Whenever possible, I've been linking within the Wiki, but that's been very rarely possible, and that's neither here nor there. JCaesar 18:48, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I think Hallmark Hall of Fame should be a series in the sense that it gets it's own page and each movie should be labeled "Hallmark Hall of Fame\Movie Title" but it really shouldn't be divided into seasons and episode numbers because it's not that kind of series maybe years just so the list page isn't huge (there's precedent for this that's how the Sci Fi Pictures weekly movies have been done). Tv.com lists it with seasons because they have a retardedly rigid database system that can't do anything else. Imdb lists them both seperately on their own page and as an alphabetical list of episodes on the Hall of Fame page again because of a rigid database structure. This site doesn't have a database structure so we can tailor make a page for them that make sense in terms of what they are.

As for listing guest star appearances the name of the individual movie should be used not some random season/episode number that doesn't even make sense or tell you what it was and I'm not sure they should go in the guest star section since the person could be the star of the movie so it's kind of a misnomer. A TV movie credits section probably isn't a bad idea for listing this sort of thing.The-jam 18:18, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I placed it in a new Specials and TV Movies section, which should solve this. Currently I used the guest starring template because it works just as well as far as I can tell (except the possible problem of the word "Episode" in the template, but an alternative word alludes me right now that is vague enough for tv movies and specials). It does have the episode/movie number, but i changed it so it's just the total number that Hallmark had produced until that point, instead of dividing the number by Season X Episode like before. --MateoP 18:24, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I changed it to make the table work as a generic movie/special section not all of which are part of a series of movies and as far as relavent information it gives you what you need to know for a movie (link to page with name of movie, role and air date) you don't need a link to the main Hallmark page on each actors page and the airdate is all you need to place the movie in the scope of the series.The-jam 18:30, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

I added the latest part before I read this. You can remove it if you want, I won't oppose it. I added a section for the general show or studio. I think it would work for both TV movies and specials. Like in the case of SciFi Pictures, that could be linked there. but it's not terribly important to me that it stays. --MateoP 18:36, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

That table looks reasonable enough. Again I ask, while we're here, any idea on how to handle TV and theatrical movies? JCaesar 18:48, 4 August 2006 (EDT)